Dynomotion

Group: DynoMotion Message: 13439 From: toolhoarder Date: 7/4/2016
Subject: Basic Info RE Lathe Threading and Sensors
New questions RE my converted mini-lathe.

I am trying to set my lathe up for threading; that means I have to work with the spindle. I don't know a whole lot about this, and I don't want people to do all the work for me, telling me step by step. I don't want to waste people's time. But it would be helpful if I could get a couple of quick answers to help me avoid wasting my own time.

First, for threading, does my KFLOP have to be able to control the spindle, or is it enough for it to be able to sense the RPM's? Right now I'm fooling with Mach3, but I would like to move up to KMotionCNC sooner or later.

Second, is it likely--I don't expect a definite yes or no; an educated guess will be fine--that the KFLOP will be able to work with the output from an existing optical sensor that came with the lathe? The spindle has a ring with a hole in it, and the ring turns through a caliper sort of thing which must surely be an optical sensor that feeds the tachometer. I am wondering if I can cut into the wiring instead of adding an additional sensor.

Happy Fourth, and thanks for whatever help you can offer.


Group: DynoMotion Message: 13442 From: Hardy Family Date: 7/4/2016
Subject: Re: Basic Info RE Lathe Threading and Sensors
The kflop does not need to control the spindle speed directly.  Instead, it reads the spindle speed and adjusts its internal "clock rate" so that coordinated motion syncs with the measured spindle speed.

Of course, if the spindle speed is only measured once per rev, then the speed should hold fairly steady i.e. a big motor and plenty of flywheel effect.

Sounds like you have an optical sensor.  One side of the "caliper" is an LED, and the other is a phototransistor (or photodiode).  You are best off trying to measure the signal on the existing board.  If the tacho is a 0-3V signal, then it would be directly compatible with the kflop.  Otherwise, you would need a resistive divider or resistor/zener.

I wouldn't cut into the wiring unless you didn't need the existing tacho.  But tapping it should be OK.

Regards,
SJH


On Mon, Jul 4, 2016 at 9:49 AM, toolhoarder@... [DynoMotion] <DynoMotion@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
 

New questions RE my converted mini-lathe.

I am trying to set my lathe up for threading; that means I have to work with the spindle. I don't know a whole lot about this, and I don't want people to do all the work for me, telling me step by step. I don't want to waste people's time. But it would be helpful if I could get a couple of quick answers to help me avoid wasting my own time.

First, for threading, does my KFLOP have to be able to control the spindle, or is it enough for it to be able to sense the RPM's? Right now I'm fooling with Mach3, but I would like to move up to KMotionCNC sooner or later.

Second, is it likely--I don't expect a definite yes or no; an educated guess will be fine--that the KFLOP will be able to work with the output from an existing optical sensor that came with the lathe? The spindle has a ring with a hole in it, and the ring turns through a caliper sort of thing which must surely be an optical sensor that feeds the tachometer. I am wondering if I can cut into the wiring instead of adding an additional sensor.

Happy Fourth, and thanks for whatever help you can offer.



Group: DynoMotion Message: 13443 From: toolhoarder Date: 7/4/2016
Subject: Re: Basic Info RE Lathe Threading and Sensors
Thanks. I really appreciate that. Exactly what I needed.
Group: DynoMotion Message: 13447 From: Moray Cuthill Date: 7/4/2016
Subject: Re: Basic Info RE Lathe Threading and Sensors

To thread on a lathe with a Kflop, you need a quadrature encoder on the spindle. The kflop relies on a hardware encoder input in order to synchronize axis motion with the spindle.

A basic single slot sensor won't work.

Moray

On 4 Jul 2016 20:33, "toolhoarder@... [DynoMotion]" <DynoMotion@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
 

Thanks. I really appreciate that. Exactly what I needed.

Group: DynoMotion Message: 13448 From: toolhoarder Date: 7/4/2016
Subject: Re: Basic Info RE Lathe Threading and Sensors
Well, now I'm confused. Doesn't that directly contradict the first answer I got? Am I misunderstanding or are you saying the other commenter is wrong?

Thanks for the help.
Group: DynoMotion Message: 13450 From: Hardy Family Date: 7/4/2016
Subject: Re: Basic Info RE Lathe Threading and Sensors
I just directly answered your query.  Yes, Moray is correct in that you really need quadrature signal for spindle coordination.  You could generate a quadrature signal from a single pulse per rev, but it's going to be tricky.  You'd need a PLL circuit with biphase output.  Probably easier to just add a quadrature encoder.

Regards,
SJH


On Mon, Jul 4, 2016 at 1:46 PM, toolhoarder@... [DynoMotion] <DynoMotion@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
 

Well, now I'm confused. Doesn't that directly contradict the first answer I got? Am I misunderstanding or are you saying the other commenter is wrong?

Thanks for the help.


Group: DynoMotion Message: 13451 From: toolhoarder Date: 7/4/2016
Subject: Re: Basic Info RE Lathe Threading and Sensors
Okay; I guess I'll have to figure it out. Thanks again.
Group: DynoMotion Message: 13452 From: Moray Cuthill Date: 7/4/2016
Subject: Re: Basic Info RE Lathe Threading and Sensors
Now I'm at a computer, I'll give a bit more detail.

When using Mach 3, the parallel port and most external motion controllers aimed at the hobby end of the market, will only thread using a single pulse. Various people will argue that a single pulse is useless, but for the majority of people it produces perfectly adequate results. I used a single slot on my last lathe, and it cut threads perfectly fine.

When you get in to the higher end motion controllers (i.e. KFlop), they normally require an encoder input, or give the option for a multislot input.

If you search ebay for 'incremental rotary encoder', basic ones of Chinese origin can be had for not much money. If you want something more specific (I.e. differential outputs) then in the US you have US Digital (www.usdigital.com), or in the UK there's British Encoder (www.encoder.co.uk).

The main thing is you want an encoder that produces an incremental quadrature output. For a KFlop you'll want a basic A&B TTL level output, for a Kanalog you ideally want a differential/line driven output (A, _A, B, _B) but you could get the differential output by installing a suitable line driver chip.

Easiest way to drive them, is make a bracket so you can attach it next to the spindle, and drive it using a small toothed belt and a couple suitable pulleys.

Moray

On Mon, Jul 4, 2016 at 10:49 PM, toolhoarder@... [DynoMotion] <DynoMotion@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
 

Okay; I guess I'll have to figure it out. Thanks again.


Group: DynoMotion Message: 13453 From: toolhoarder Date: 7/4/2016
Subject: Re: Basic Info RE Lathe Threading and Sensors
This is really more information than I could have hoped for. It will make my life much easier.

I have read up on this a bit. I hope I understand correctly. "Quadrature" implies two signals 90 degrees apart on the spindle's rotation, provided by some sort of gaps or marks on a rotating disk. The existing RPM disk on my lathe only has one opening for the sensor to see.

I looked up quadrature encoders, and it looks like they would be hard to use on a mini-lathe. If I understand correctly, you have to make the encoder's shaft turn along rigidly with the lathe's spindle, which would be a giant headache involving a belt or gears.

I found a page where some guy created a disk with dozens of gaps, for a CNC mini-lathe. I can make my own disk very easily, and I can put it on the spindle with no modifications, just by removing and replacing the existing nuts on the spindle end. Will the KFlop do threading with input from two cheap optical sensors and a ring with two gaps in it at 90 degrees?

I am still looking through the manual, trying to find the place where the sensor inputs go into the board, and what the voltages should be.
Group: DynoMotion Message: 13454 From: toolhoarder Date: 7/4/2016
Subject: Re: Basic Info RE Lathe Threading and Sensors
It looks like I need two linear optical switches and a slotted wheel. I found some stuff on Mouser's site. I would have to find a supply voltage somewhere in the lathe's circuitry.
Group: DynoMotion Message: 13455 From: Hardy Family Date: 7/4/2016
Subject: Re: Basic Info RE Lathe Threading and Sensors
There are also inductive sensors.  Most lathe spindles should have a gear or two, so with two inductive pickups you can offset them to get a quadrature signal off the gear teeth.  Nice thing about gears is that you get a decent number of pulses per rev, and they are accurately spaced.  Also avoids the problem of keeping optical pickups clean, since the magnets are immune to all but the worst gunk.

Regards,
SJH


On Mon, Jul 4, 2016 at 5:03 PM, toolhoarder@... [DynoMotion] <DynoMotion@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
 

It looks like I need two linear optical switches and a slotted wheel. I found some stuff on Mouser's site. I would have to find a supply voltage somewhere in the lathe's circuitry.


Group: DynoMotion Message: 13461 From: toolhoarder Date: 7/5/2016
Subject: Re: Basic Info RE Lathe Threading and Sensors
Thanks. I already have one inductive sensor, because I bought it when I got the CNC plans. I would like to try the optical approach first because the inductive sensors are large and would require hacking up the lathe.